Curse

Dusk_ · Apr 21, 2010, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

I think so. Defensive spirits promote a degenerate playstyle full of leeroying and other bad junk. Most of the time, if your defensive spirits go down for whatever reason, you'll proceed to wipe because you didn't take the time to pull properly. On the other hand, Minions takes care of annoying hexes and a large amount of the AoE that would have fallen to the party. They also keep enemy melee from screwing up your casters by providing a meatshield. Minions can also actually do damage through Death Nova and random 10s, while ST is a purely defensive build.

Minions promote a far more degenerative play-style than defencive spirits do. Every single meatwall reliant build requires a "charge from mob to mob as fast as possible" mindset.

It's also laughable that you'd mock defencive spirits if they "go down for whatever reason". Minion-bombers are constantly plagued the same issues, except they're even worse about it. Low on corpses? Minionwall is thin. Minions die too fast? Minionwall is gone. Minions dying off while running from point A to point B? Minionwall is rotting away.

Defencive Spirits are far more reliable than Minions could ever be, except for damage. However, ST gives so much defencive strength that you can focus your other builds on damage with much less worry.

Life Bringing · Apr 21, 2010, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk

Every single meatwall reliant build requires a "charge from mob to mob as fast as possible" mindset.

I'm confused why moving quickly is a bad thing. I've also never been plagued by such a mindset. Maybe it's just you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk

However, ST gives so much defencive strength that you can focus your other builds on damage with much less worry.

You just further proved my point about being screwed when spirits fall. If you're relying on a ST, you lose the reasoning to bring shit like Aegis and Enfeebling Blood in the first place, because you're trying to compensate for lack of damage. Hero teams with MMs have multiple layers of defense, making a wipe very difficult.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk

Low on corpses? Minionwall is thin. Minions die too fast? Minionwall is gone. Minions dying off while running from point A to point B? Minionwall is rotting away.

Honestly, how many areas have a lack of corpses? I even ran an MM in Ooze Pit HM and it filled it's purpose extremely well(admittedly, it was an oversight, but the 2-3 minions from AotL tanked just fine for my purposes). If your minions are dying, then they are doing their 2 jobs perfectly. They are not only absorbing damage that would have been dealt to your party, they are also exploding and dishing out ~115 damage+poison per death. I'd also like to point out that lvl 21 horrors and lvl 14 minions have no problems staying alive from group to group.

Dusk_ · Apr 21, 2010, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

I'm confused why moving quickly is a bad thing. I've also never been plagued by such a mindset. Maybe it's just you?

Maybe it's you just being a biased nitpicker, calling one build "Leeroying" because that's the only way you see fit to play it.

Spirits are not bad. Neither are minions. However, Spirits do not hinder your play-style in the slightest, save for a single flag click at most (if even that). Spirits, however, make you far more flexible when it comes to mob-to-mob time frames.

There is nothing in the slightest that promotes degenerative tactics, unless you decide to be an idiot.

Quote:

You just further proved my point about being screwed when spirits fall. If you're relying on a ST, you lose the reasoning to bring shit like Aegis and Enfeebling Blood in the first place, because you're trying to compensate for lack of damage. Hero teams with MMs have multiple layers of defense, making a wipe very difficult.

Uh, what?

"MM is better because I bring lots of defencive skills! ST sucks because you didn't bring anything else!"

MMs needs all those layers because it in itself is not good enough to keep a party alive. ST needs some layers, but much less, and those extra skills that are freed up can more than "compensate for the lack of damage".

And really, just what are you doing with your Spirits that they fall so much? Flagging them as tanks or something? Most of the time you don't even need to bother flagging at all, and they'll sit nice and safe until they've been used up. If you do have to flag, they'll be way out of aggro risk.

Quote:

Honestly, how many areas have a lack of corpses? I even ran an MM in Ooze Pit HM and it filled it's purpose extremely well(admittedly, it was an oversight, but the 2-3 minions from AotL tanked just fine for my purposes). If your minions are dying, then they are doing their 2 jobs perfectly. They are not only absorbing damage that would have been dealt to your party, they are also exploding and dishing out ~115 damage+poison per death. I'd also like to point out that lvl 21 horrors and lvl 14 minions have no problems staying alive from group to group.

Uh, the point wasn't that minions aren't good. It's that they have far more failure potential than Spirits do. Which is why your claims were ludicrous.

If you even bothered to try using Spirits as well as you apparently use minions, they wouldn't be failing at all. Ever.

Daesu · Apr 21, 2010, 02:48 PM // 14:48

There are pros and cons with using the defensive spirits versus minion bombing.

Minion bombs provide good offense as well as defense, while defensive spirits are only for defense. Minions can mitigate hexes and conditions, defensive spirits dont. Minions can also provide party heals through Dwayna's Sorrow.

On the other hand, minions rely on corpses so they are not useful in certain areas, defensive spirits dont have this restriction. Defensive spirits are better if you need to protect allies in certain missions. Defensive spirits are easier to play on heroes since they dont tend to lag behind casting Death Nova, however if you flag your heroes and pull properly on each encounter that is not much of an issue.

It depends on what you need. Generally, I prefer to use the minion bomber because there are other ways to provide defense for party members without wasting spirit's hp on minions. You can replace the defensive spirits rit with an ER protect/smite or you can have a strong restore healer instead (e.g. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...2&postcount=31 ) with PS and Aegis that you can control manually if necessary, from somewhere in your team.

FlyMoto · Apr 21, 2010, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Heros run Minion Bomber much better than ST. ST on a player from a defense perspective is going to be superior as they can place the spirits better and ensure that the spirits don't go down when not desired.

On a more serious note, any decent team build nowadays should have ST, Minions, Imbagon, and 2 ER Prots for safe measure.

Life Bringing · Apr 21, 2010, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

Maybe it's you just being a biased nitpicker, calling one build "Leeroying" because that's the only way you see fit to play it.

Flawed logic tbh. If you actually pulled properly, you wouldn't need the defensive spirits in the first place, making them redundant.

Quote:

Uh, what?

"MM is better because I bring lots of defencive skills! ST sucks because you didn't bring anything else!"

MMs needs all those layers because it in itself is not good enough to keep a party alive. ST needs some layers, but much less, and those extra skills that are freed up can more than "compensate for the lack of damage".

I need 4 slots for my defense(Aegis, Prot Spirit, SoA, and Enfeebling Blood), and I don't use a defensive spirit spammer. If you use a fully defensive ST bar, you've already wasted more than is necessary. Minions provide a dual effect, as they are proficient damage dealers through explosions, while still protecting the party. Diffusing defense/support onto the midline is incredibly more effective than devoting a whole character slot to it.

Quote:

If you even bothered to try using Spirits as well as you apparently use minions, they wouldn't be failing at all. Ever.

I've used spirit spammers to complete almost every dungeon in the game. However, I'm not a shitter, and don't need a ST. SoS+SoGM and a minion bomber. If you know how to pull and flag, you won't have any problems whatsoever with any area of the game.

Dusk_ · Apr 21, 2010, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Flawed logic tbh. If you actually pulled properly, you wouldn't need the defensive spirits in the first place, making them redundant.

Uh, what?

You said "Defencive spirits promote Leeroying". Now you're just changing the point altogether?

Nice try. Defencive spirits don't promote any degenerative playing.

Quote:

I need 4 slots for my defense(Aegis, Prot Spirit, SoA, and Enfeebling Blood), and I don't use a defensive spirit spammer. If you use a fully defensive ST bar, you've already wasted more than is necessary. Minions provide a dual effect, as they are proficient damage dealers through explosions, while still protecting the party. Diffusing defense/support onto the midline is incredibly more effective than devoting a whole character slot to it.

Wow, no redbarring? I'm certainly impressed, doing all of Hard Mode without healing.

ST bars give ridiculous amounts of damage prevention. Enough that I just need Prot. Spirit and 1.5 healers (or just both henches) and survive just fine without anything else. Any extra is just padding and insurance, especially when I'm running a pure damage build.

Quote:

I've used spirit spammers to complete almost every dungeon in the game. However, I'm not a shitter, and don't need a ST. SoS+SoGM and a minion bomber. If you know how to pull and flag, you won't have any problems whatsoever with any area of the game.

So, you think running 20+ aggro magnets is the same thing as proper pulling and flagging?

Myotheraccount · Apr 21, 2010, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashes

Soul Twisting + Shelter + Union = pretty nice idea - if it wasnt for those damn minions.

Minions will rip apart ur spirits within a sec, so my questions to you guy are:

Is it worth it to drop the minions completely? Do we rly need a MM to succeed in pve? I know the meat shield is nice, but cant the spirit provide a somewhat better "shield"?

Yes we do. Because apart from "shield" minions also provide great deal of damage which defensive spirits provide none of.

Combined with AI's pro Death Nova and Barbs skillz they can deal some very serious damage. Walling is just icing on a cake really.

So if you want to get rid of minions and replace them with useless defensive spirits, don't. You will just lose damage and meat wall but gain nothing.

Because one way or another, defensive spirits are useless. You just don't need that extra pure defense. Just get some offensive spirits on your rits, they will deal huge damage and provide a meat shield. Same goes for minions.

ONLY support you need to have on your heroes is Prot Spirit, SoA and PwK and even that is arguable.

Jeydra · Apr 22, 2010, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

ST bars give ridiculous amounts of damage prevention. Enough that I just need Prot. Spirit and 1.5 healers (or just both henches) and survive just fine without anything else. Any extra is just padding and insurance, especially when I'm running a pure damage build.

Just pointing out something ...

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/1...t10431929.html

AcousticMeanie · Apr 22, 2010, 06:17 AM // 06:17

They're both effective and depend on your play style. In my personal experience I tend to c-space more when I have an MM. When I have a spirit heavy team, I'm positioning my heroes for maximum effectiveness and am considerably more methodical with my pulling. With an MM the longer I wait the closer to death the minions become and the worse the pull will be.

The extra damage from an MM is nice, but the consistency of defense from ST defensive can't be matched.

upier · Apr 22, 2010, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Life Bringing · Apr 22, 2010, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

This showcases best the level of the discussion here.
When DNed minions WITH Barbs are something we consider a great damage dealer then you HAVE to know we are dealing with pretty sub-par parties.

Defensive spirits and MBs matter when running a pretty bad team. There is no need for either when you are abusing the most insane options in the game.
So, when playing on a sub-par level, if spirits or minions help you win, that means that their presence there is justified.

What exactly are you talking about when you say sub-par teams? Are we talking H/H teams that are bad, or anything that's not an 8 man team? While minions bombers certainly aren't necessary in hero teams, they are extremely efficient tanks and damage dealers. No, i am not advocating using minions to trigger barbs.

upier · Apr 22, 2010, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Daesu · Apr 22, 2010, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcousticMeanie

They're both effective and depend on your play style. In my personal experience I tend to c-space more when I have an MM. When I have a spirit heavy team, I'm positioning my heroes for maximum effectiveness and am considerably more methodical with my pulling. With an MM the longer I wait the closer to death the minions become and the worse the pull will be.

The extra damage from an MM is nice, but the consistency of defense from ST defensive can't be matched.

If you flag your MM before pulling, then chances are when the enemies approach, your melee minions would move forward to enage them and wall them up instead of remaining behind. If you are worried that your minions dont last long then bring Jagged Bones instead of Aotl on your MM.

The melee minions wall up enemies better for your casters than ranged spirits so I would probably choose a MM for my casters, if corpses are available. If you are playing a melee fighter, and you can hold aggro well, then minions are more of a luxury to protect your back line than a necessity, and you can consider a ST defensive rit although I still prefer an ER protect/smite and bring SoH instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

But to argue which one is better when BOTH are completely sub-par to the best options is really like arguing what shit stinks less.

Actually most human necros do not like playing a MM nowadays because it is tedious. Even if they do play a MM, they usually dont play as a MB which requires them to cast DN. These are the tasks that are best left for the heroes. It is easier for a human to play a ST defensive rit than a MB.

And no, I dont usually bring barbs for my minions either when I am using them as bombs.

Myotheraccount · Apr 22, 2010, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

This showcases best the level of the discussion here.
When DNed minions WITH Barbs are something we consider a great damage dealer then you HAVE to know we are dealing with pretty sub-par parties.

Defensive spirits and MBs matter when running a pretty bad team. There is no need for either when you are abusing the most insane options in the game.
So, when playing on a sub-par level, if spirits or minions help you win, that means that their presence there is justified.

What are these non sub-par parties and "most insane options" in the game you going on about?

You must be comparing 8-man parties to H/H.

Wow. Lol.

Ney Matogrosso · Apr 22, 2010, 07:45 PM // 19:45

lol, there are to many people with good arguments here, but I disagree with the opinion that the heroes could not run ST build properly, I made a full HM book in GWEN and try to see the problems with heroes AI using ST build, and energy management was the critical point, even with lots os minions sucking spirits HP, the problem was easy resolved run Boon of Creation in the first slot and Energetic was Lee Sa in other, the 7º. Doing this I could run to mobs without problem, of course is not perfect but run well. To the problem of minions that don't die, try use Taste of death skill or Feast of Death. Minions like people said are good to absorb hex and conditions, meatwall and do a little damage too. If the problem is low damage, Spirit Spaw build and more agressive henchs will help a lot. Forget Monk Protec hench, put a War or Other. I actually run one Spirit Spaw (me) more a ST hero (Razah), a Minion Bomber (Olias) and a Healer (Livia with N/Rt build) and 2 ele hench more 1 monk heal (maybe I'll dismiss him) and a war. At the moment are good enought to me, maybe I try a vanq or something, but the background that I have runing the God with my paragon are that protection is better than damage and damage is easy to obtain than protection.

AcousticMeanie · Apr 23, 2010, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

If you flag your MM before pulling, then chances are when the enemies approach, your melee minions would move forward to enage them and wall them up instead of remaining behind. If you are worried that your minions dont last long then bring Jagged Bones instead of Aotl on your MM.

The melee minions wall up enemies better for your casters than ranged spirits so I would probably choose a MM for my casters, if corpses are available. If you are playing a melee fighter, and you can hold aggro well, then minions are more of a luxury to protect your back line than a necessity, and you can consider a ST defensive rit although I still prefer an ER protect/smite and bring SoH instead.

I agree that this method is superior in certain situations, however, it's not consistent. It works well on warrior and assassin type mobs, but dervish = poof! and ranged mobs spread them out too thin to be an effective form of mitigation. It's still possible that they'll occupy a ranged mob's attention, but that's a matter of chance.

To me the break down is as follows.

MM = Faster, but poses a slight risk
ST = Slower, but consistent mitigation

That's where a player must choose their style or preference for a given situation.

Myotheraccount · Apr 23, 2010, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Yeah, of course I am.
The point is that it doesn't make sense to start WW3 because of ST vs MB. Because when you grab a party that is actually good, you won't be running either. So just realistically look at what either of these options offers, what are it's bonuses and shortcomings and if it helps you win PvE - that's pretty much the most you can ask for.
It doesn't make sense to argue which one is better when both win PvE and both are insanely worse than what you could be running.

Then you must be trolling.

You cant compare human parties to H/H. They are two completely different things. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. There are sub-par build for 8-man just like there are sub-par build for H/H.

There are things only players can do like SC. On other hand, for general PvE purposes H/H is far superior because it's easier to set up, performs just as good as an 8-man party and doesn't make dumb mistakes. In the end, AI is still superior to a player because it can't slip up, always obeys and is more predictable.

For example I helped a friend with Eternal Grove HM today. I ran my Spiritway and she ran Discord. We blasted through the second part of the mission without any casualties and finished in ridiculously fast time. That's considering I tanked the right side without any heal whatsoever. He only healing we had was coming from one gimped Discord N/Rt. That was probably the best time I had in EG and far better than having a full player party. Now the question is how that is sub-par?

Anyway, you can't compare the two neither you can call a hero build sub-par simply because it's made for heroes.

Jeydra · Apr 23, 2010, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

For example I helped a friend with Eternal Grove HM today. I ran my Spiritway and she ran Discord. We blasted through the second part of the mission without any casualties and finished in ridiculously fast time. That's considering I tanked the right side without any heal whatsoever. He only healing we had was coming from one gimped Discord N/Rt. That was probably the best time I had in EG and far better than having a full player party. Now the question is how that is sub-par?

You had Danika / Mhenlo ...

I do agree though that calling MB's and ST's subpar is unfair. They are (among the) best options when you are H/H'ing. It's like AP calling for Elementalists. Sure it's a subpar damage build compared to the best damage builds in the game, but if you're constrained by 1) dealing damage and 2) being an Elementalist primary, you don't exactly have better options.

Myotheraccount · Apr 23, 2010, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You had Danika / Mhenlo ...

I do agree though that calling MB's and ST's subpar is unfair. They are (among the) best options when you are H/H'ing. It's like AP calling for Elementalists. Sure it's a subpar damage build compared to the best damage builds in the game, but if you're constrained by 1) dealing damage and 2) being an Elementalist primary, you don't exactly have better options.

Mhenlo/Danika srs bsns. Ok fine we had 2x0.5 of a healer so that's 1 healer outside the pt.

I been tanking left side btw, not right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

What you are doing is comparing the best AI we have to the worst players.
Compare the best AI we have to the BEST players we have.

As I said, I fully agree with exploring both options and sharing the pros and the cons of each. But until Anton starts running around with Critical Agility, knows how to chain attacks and SY! and knows how to grab aggro - the best I can hope for is something I can win with.
And both options provide you with that.

And you sir, are comparing worst heroes to best players.

There are builds that AI can exploit better than most players like MB, interrupt, redbar, PwK, condition/hex removal and single target block spells such as Guardian or WoW. There is prolly more to the list, but I can't remember. You just have to find the right build to run on your Hero.

Furthermore you can always micro and flag your hero.